Ah, the F word.
I've noticed that it's one of those words that gets bandied about like a hot potato, especially among groups of victims, survivors, ACoNs, Narcs, users, abusers, the abused, the scorned, the hurt, the hurters. Basically, in any group of people who've perpetrated a crime against another human being or who've been victimized by other human beings, you can count on the F word coming up at some point on either or both sides of the conversation.
The Bad Uns want your forgiveness. More on this a little further in.
The Good People who are trying to help you heal want you to give forgiveness, and this just bothers the ever loving hell out of me.
The kinder amongst that last group say things like this:
Forgiveness is the gift you give yourself.
Forgiveness is just the tool you use to move on.
The more self-righteous amongst them might say:
You holding on to your anger is keeping you from healing.
You won't be able to get better until you forgive them (it/him/her.)
And my personal favorite:
By not forgiving, you're letting them (it/him/her) live rent free in your head.
I'm certain that they mean well, really, and it's been my experience that for non-ACoNs, those who haven't had to survive the types of intentionally inflicted horrific abuse that most of us have had to live through, it's just a pop-culture fall back position. Like something that they heard on Dr. Phil that seemed to make a lot of sense at the time, and it's the only thing that they can think of. When faced with the fact of only a fraction of the pure evil that my NFOO has hit me with, I'm convinced that most normies go into shock.
I was once in a car wreck in the middle of nowhere - I was by myself and ended up driving off the road, rolling the car I was in twice and landing several yards down a very steep embankment in the middle of the woods. I wasn't wearing a seat belt, like a freaking idiot, so I got the full effect of the spin cycle. It was dark and I had a concussion and several scrapes, so I was bloodied up a bit and seriously confused. After I finally figured out how to get out of the car, I got tangled up in a barbed wire fence while climbing - crawling really - back up toward the road. I fell - in shorts - on my knees on the asphalt when I finally got back to the road, scraping the hell out of them, too. After a few more minutes of bumbling around in the dark, screaming to the empty woods and fields around me, I saw headlights coming. I couldn't think what to do, but I was terrified that they'd drive right past me. I sat down in the middle of the road, determined that they were going to stop and help me or just run me the fuck over. (As I re-read this, I can't help but notice that this true story - which happened when I was 16, by the way - is a fairly apt metaphor for what my childhood in the NFOO felt like.)
At any rate, they did stop and helped by getting me back to my friend's house, who then called the NParents after I convinced them not to call 911, and somehow I ended up cleaned up and in serious trouble. I don't remember the exact course of events after I gave up and planted my ass in the middle of the country road, but I do remember this.
The nice couple who stopped to pick me up saw me bloody and bruised and crying and knocked for a loop in the middle of nowhere took one look at me and said,
"Oh my god, are you okay?"
The friend's parent who answered the door screamed at the sight of me and then said through her fingers covering her mouth,
"Oh my god, are you okay?"
The people who saw me with my bandages and bruises over the next week all looked at me and said,
"Oh my god, are you okay?"
Honestly, did I look very fucking okay?
But I think it's a reflex, a thing we say when we don't know what else to say, like, "I'm sorry for your loss," when we talk to someone who's recently had a person close to them die. It's a place holder, really, because we don't know what else to say, but we know we should say something.
I'm sorry for your loss? Is the dead person really lost? Cause that could be a serious public health hazard if all those bodies are missing.
Are you okay? What, you mean apart from the blood and the fact that my brain might be swelling right up to the edge of my skull right now? No, not really.
And all those canned sayings about forgiveness... well, I think they're just the same type of thing. What those phrases are meant to imply is the idea that we, as the wronged party, will feel better is we can let the wrong, the slight against us, go. If we can give it up to the great higher power of the universe, we won't have to carry that burden around with us anymore. Is there truth to this? Sure, I think so. Drop the rock, so to speak, ha ha. But I don't think that letting something go, choosing not to dwell on it, moving on - I don't think that any of those things require forgiveness, at least they don't for me.
So I think that the Good People trying to help are basically misinformed as to what forgiveness is to an ACoN and what is required in order for forgiveness to be given and it is this, for me:
A person has to stop repeating their hurtful actions toward me in order for me to consider forgiveness of them for those actions.
A person has to take responsibility - complete and total responsibility with no excuses - for their actions in order for me to consider forgiveness of those actions or of them.
A person has to show me, through repeated actions that are the exact opposite of their hurtful action that they are walking the talk of their alleged character change in order for me to consider forgiveness of them or their actions.
Essentially, it goes like this: Admittance, Accountability, Repentance, Atonement.
Then we talk can talk about the F word.
*And, honestly, I'd just love to hear from anyone with a Narc in their life who's followed through on all four of those criteria long term, so let's say... oh, five years, without reverting back to the old ways. In the words of one of my favorite movies (bonus points if you know it,) "I would pay a million pesos to see the look on those guys' faces when they see this baby coming through..." Seriously, anyone have a Narc follow through on this? Anyone? Anyone?
Considering forgiveness of an abuser or their abusive actions at any point prior to those actions of change being fully played out, well that's just insanity as the definition of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results. How do I know? Read on.
I want to tell you a story about forgiveness and action. My father sexually abused me. I believed the lies that he was sorry, that my mother who knew about it and manipulated me into recanting my statement to the police was sorry and would protect me from further abuse. I forgave him, and I forgave her because they asked me to and because I wanted to believe that they were deserving of forgiveness and that I was deserving of giving myself that 'gift of forgiveness.' Weren't we all just evolved creatures? Wouldn't the Good People who want to help have been proud?
And guess what? He didn't sexually abuse me again. Hooray for the healing power of forgiveness! Oh, wait, that's right, he just waited until one of my DD's was old enough to hit his pedo-radar and abused her instead! And guess what? NM knew about that too and manipulated my DD into not telling me!
Fuck forgiveness.
As to what the Bad Uns want forgiveness for? Well, that's simple, don't you think?
They just want your permission to hurt you again, and to sweeten the sadistic pot by being able to remind you later on that you can't bring up how they hurt you because didn't you, after all, say that you forgave them? With no take-backs!
Hurting a person like my NFOO hurt me is a conscientious, planned action - series of actions, really, and we call that a pattern. Mr. Newton taught us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Forgiveness is an action, too, and I think we sometimes get confused in thinking that it's the only action we can take when we're LC or NC or still trying to get away. We think it will help us heal. But I think it's often the wrong action where Narcs are concerned. I think that the appropriate action to facilitate healing is to push the abusers out and deny them access, to make is so that they can't hurt us anymore. Then we can heal. They're just scab-pickers, and they had to go before my wounds could close.
Trust is now earned with me.
Forgiveness is earned with me too. You want free forgiveness? Get religion.
I'm not going to feel bad for protecting myself, and I don't need to forgive my oppressors in order to feel free. Staying No Contact with them is really all I need for that.
So, that's the gift I'm giving myself: safety.
I use the tools of growth (honoring my self, detachment from those who hurt me, honesty, introspection, cognitive therapy) to get over the six different ways from Sunday that they screwed me up,and so far forgiveness hasn't been necessary for that growth (if anything, approaching it has been detrimental to me.)
I let go of my anger by feeling safe enough to let it go, not by absolving those who caused it.
I am better, because they're not able to reach me to hurt me anymore, not because I've forgiven them.
And that rent-free thing? Hoo boy, Narcs are tape worms. They crawled in when I was just a baby and set up shop in my head. They built condos there and lived in style. I cut as much out as I could by booting them out of my life, not by forgiving them. Do they still live in my head? Of course they do, they're my Family Of Origin. But I've got 'em locked down in SuperMax with all the rest of the creeps and criminals, and I'm quite certain that I won't be commuting their life sentences.
Forgiveness or not, that's where they're staying, and I could give a shit what Dr. Phil or anyone else has to say about it.
Love,
Vanci
Loads of those forgiveness platitudes show up in AA and usually pissed me off mightily.
ReplyDeleteGreat post. I want to move on, and I found trying the forgiveness route just invalidated the damage done and made me vulnerable for repeat harm.
vicariousrising,
DeleteI know, me too. I finally had to come to terms with the fact that most of those Good People who want to help in 12-step programs didn't have the same type or level of experienced abuse that we as ACoNs did. The best I've ever been able to do is to replace 'forgiveness' with 'detachment' and only then so that I won't dwell in 'resentment.' And even that is only possible because I am safe behind the boundaries of my NC.
I, too, have found it best for my well being NOT to open up that door to repeat harm, as you said.
Love,
Vanci
This is *exactly* it: "Great post. I want to move on, and I found trying the forgiveness route just invalidated the damage done and made me vulnerable for repeat harm. "
DeleteNot long after I was finally mentally healthy and strong enough to go NC with my FOO, I ran into a former coworker of my NF, who without even saying hello, burst out with, "He's your FATHER--you HAVE TO forgive him!"
Well, no; no, I don't. I tried forgiveness for 30 years and all it got me was further, unrepentant, gleeful abuse. As the saying goes, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insanity.
P.S. Vanci, welcome back--I've missed you!
Anon,
DeleteI've had those moments, too. "But she's your mother!" To which I always think, right, so she's even less deserving of my compassion - she should have treated me BETTER - as my mother and all - than she treated anyone else!
It's good to be back.
Love,
Vanci
My NF and ESis's keep pushing me to forgive my NM's behavior. After serially forgiving her, only to have her revert to type on average every two years, I am done. The plagiarism of my work and dragging my sisters in to defend her just broke my back. No more. Forgiveness has become an empty platitude. Behavior is everything. Walk your talk, keep walking it, and I don't care if you go mute--I will believe what you do, not what you say.
ReplyDeleteCS,
DeleteExactly! Show me how you've changed and I will accept the new person that you are. Can't show me? Then I guess you haven't changed!
Love,
Vanci
WOW, just WOW! Great validation here! Every time I've tried to start over with my abusers they've taken it as a sign that their favourite doormat is back and they can start wiping their feet again. If I were ever foolish enough to reinstate our relationship they'd better drop the gaslighting, own up to what they've done and never damn well do it again. Then, MAYBE I'll feel some forgiveness for the years of crap that fucked up my life!
ReplyDeleteVicarious, AA has a double standard on forgiveness. When we make amends to those we have harmed, we're told our "victims" have no obligation to reinstate our relationship or forgive us. We have to EARN back the trust by PROVING we have changed, and even then there is no obligation on their part to reconcile with us.
The flip side of that is, I've lost two sponsors for not forgiving and reconciling with my NPs. The 1st one resigned when I wrote a boundary letter (and felt damn good about it) to my NPs and tried going LC. The next sponsor did the "Honour your parents" thing and "They're old", "They did the best they could." Blah, blah, blah...
And, yes, I questioned this double standard. Goodbye, sponsor #2.
The excuse that The Big Book was written way back in the 1930s doesn't really cut it with me. I don't think Bill and Dr. Bob ever intended it to be frozen in time!
What works for me is changing the last line in the Serenity Prayer to "wisdom to walk away".
Having said all that, I'm now sponsorless!
mulderfan,
DeleteI agree that there's a double standard on this in program, and I think that it's part and parcel of the nature of dealing with the disease. We have to take responsibility and be accountable for our OWN actions as it concerns our bad behavior and drinking as well as our twisted thinking. If we want to stay sober, that is. And it would seem to follow that we then have to release others of their obligation to atone to us for their bad behavior.
But it doesn't work with those whose GOAL is to continue to hurt us. The best form of 'forgiveness' that I can offer those people (my NFOO) is to stay behind my wall and remain detached.
On this subject in program, I live by the catch-phrase: take what's good and leave the rest. AA's are good people, but not neccesarily experts in understanding the twisted minds of Narcs. I love your "wisdom to walk away!"
Love,
Vanci
Vanci,
ReplyDeleteYou wrots "Admittance, Accountability, Repentance, Atonement" - and i couldn't agree more. Forgivness is a transaction between the victim and the perpetrator. I would NEVER forgive someone who didn't acknowledge the offense, and then ASK for my forgivness. Anything less is platitudes.
The whole world has gone so milque toast on what is PC. The whole idea that we have to forgive before we move on? What a load of crap. To forgive the egregious abuse these narcs have committed is absolutely asking them for more of the same. They cannot feel what normal people feel, so forgiving them (in their minds) is wiping the slate clean. It is like the machine at the bowling alley. "we've cleaned up the mess (spilled pins), wiped the alley down, and now the pins are set up nice and neat for you! Please try and hit them all down again!
Unintentional hurt (having your foot stepped on) is usually follwed by an immediate, sincere apology (I'm so sorry!) Intentional hurt is followed by the perpetrator waiting for your acknowledgement that they 'got you'- then the satisfaction of being the CAUSE of your pain.
This was a great read. Thank you.
Gladys,
DeleteYes! I can forgive an accident, I can forgive a single incident and I can even forgive a few mistakes or incidents that hurt me.
But to forgive a person whose goal is to hurt me, again, continually, well, I'm not willing to do that and I refuse to believe that I should be or that I need to be.
Thanks for reading!
Love,
Vanci
Gladys, You're a genius with the bowling alley analogy! I absolutely kept getting bowled over then set myself up for another hit.
DeleteOutsiders just don't get it. To my NPs forgiveness was like an invitation to bowl harder.
Oh my goodness Gladys. Is this why my mother loves to ask me over and over and over again for me to list all the ways I have been hurt by her? She never asks me how I feel, she just wants the list of charges read ad nauseum. She acts like she forgets and doesn't understand so she asks me again and again for the list. It feels like I am ripping away the fresh skin healing over a deep wound whenever she does that. But she shows no interest in helping me not hurt, or changing her behavior. After 45 minutes of just such a conversation on Tuesday, I was a wreck. So yesterday, I went total NC. I gave myself a minimum time frame of 6 months, but NC could be extended until the Second Coming.
DeleteMaree, I tried going NC in stages. A month at first, then if they "reoffended", three months and so on, until I got to a year. Then after a year I tried a controlled visit which was a bit of a mess, resulting in an "apology" from NF. Within a month he hit me again with both barrels.
DeleteWhatever strategy you are comfortable with is the key but, personally, I wish I hadn't wasted my time!
IMO, your mother knows exactly how these "replays" make you feel and that's why she does it. Even a poor parent knows their child's weaknesses and an evil parent knows exactly how to exploit that knowledge.
Enjoy your break, it'll give that wound time to heal.
I spent months studying forgiveness. In my research, I discovered that there are many, many definitions of forgiveness. To me, what you are describing here is reconciliation, the highest form of forgiveness. I can not reconcile with my narcissistic mother, she is not safe. In my opinion, the form of forgiveness I do give is I am not responsible for her punishment. However, if someone sexually abused me I would turn them over to authorities and let them decide their punishment. With your definition of forgiveness including reconciliation, I agree totally with what you are saying here. It is sick and cruel for people to think I should just be the best of friends and totally unconcerned with the behavior of someone that takes pleasure in hurting me and zero intention of stopping. Distance and boundaries are two of the healthy choices I learned from my counselor.
ReplyDeleteHi Ruth,
DeleteHere's the definition of forgiveness that I use: To excuse for a fault or an offense; to pardon. I'm not sure that I agree that this includes or is part of reconciliation.
I absolutely agree that there are many definitions of forgiveness, though, and that it's often a moving a target as we go through different levels of healing.
Regarding the sexual abuse: And if you turned them over to the authorities and the authorities do nothing, does that then mean that nothing should be done and that the matter is closed? Because that was my experience. Twice. The authorities deal in probable cause and resonable doubt, not forgiveness. Does letting another entitity or person decide if the hurt was significant enough for punishment mean that I then have to follow that person or entity's ruling or example as to what is punishable and therefore forgivable or not?
Distance and boundaries work to keep them out and prevent further harm, but I refuse to excuse or pardon past harm lest I forget how absolutely dangerous they are to me.
I do think that we all have to work through and find the definitions and actions that work best for us, though, and I'm glad that you've found what works for you to heal.
Love,
Vanci
Sorry, my fantasy got away with me, often authorities do nothing in sexual abuse cases. Some recent news has outlined gross negligence in several areas of sexual offenders continuing for years. I certainly see by your definition pardoning fault is not appropriate in this situation. I am working on the difference of accountability for an action and when forgiveness is appropriate. By using the word pardon you are releasing the person from punishment or penalty. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to rethink what I believe. What I was taught as a child was so distorted that finding healthy is a challenge. My childhood was he hit me, he said he was sorry, I forgave him, he hit me again. I do not believe this cycle is healthy or what was intended. Forgiveness a work in progress.
DeleteRuth,
DeleteIt's so damn hard to face the reality that so many of the 'people in charge' refuse to own up to their responsibilities to protect victims and to prosecute perpetrators.
Growth is always a work in progress for all of us, right?
Love,
Vanci
Bravo, Vanci! Very well stated! My brother started pushing "forgiveness" at me this summer. I stood up for myself, instead of caving to the pressure this time. It's the first time I haven't let them bully me back into "my place."
ReplyDeleteBrace,
DeleteI sincerely mistrust anyone who 'pushes' another person to feel something that they don't. Good for you for standing up for yourself!
Love,
Vanci
Can't add a thing because you got it all.
ReplyDeleteThanks Q!
DeleteLove,
Vanci
I was stunned when I read Toxic Parents and she said that you don't have to forgive. It was the first time I'd read it anywhere. Like my sister, I came to realize my definition of forgiveness wasn't the expected definition. My EF kept saying, "You need to forgive your NM and your NB." I finally lost my temper and said, "They don't want forgiveness. They want absolution. I don't have the power to give them absolution. Only God does." He hasn't told me I need to forgive again. Now, when anyone mentions needing to forgive, I ask if they mean forgiveness or absolution. I've discovered it's a conversation stopper. I'm one of those who holds to forgiveness is about me letting go of the anger. I'll let go of the anger as soon as they stop abusing me. The anger is my shield to maintain a safe distance. Someday, I plan on being able to maintain a safe distance without the anger. I succeed sometimes, but it's something I'm learning by practice.
ReplyDeleteJudy,
DeleteI like the distinction that you made here between forgiveness and absolution. Practice, practice, practice!
Love,
Vanci
Judy, that's awesome, I'm going to use that "conversation stopper" too. And anger as a shield was an effective tool in keeping my NM in line and keeping me safe when I made my annual visit home. At the time I felt massively guilty even though I knew it was necessary but didn't know why. You explained it perfectly and it makes sense now.
ReplyDeleteHi enilina!
DeleteIsn't it strange how we've been so well trained that we feel guilty for keeping ourselves safe? Who teaches their child to feel bad about protecting themselves? Monsters, that's who.
As if we needed further proof of their insanities.
Love,
Vanci
AMEN, Vanci.
ReplyDeleteI walked away from "The Feel Good People," the purveyors of "Truth"-their's,-which they insisted, in the kindest, most conciliatory manner as if they were speaking to an over-sized brain-damaged child was the ONLY "way," the "Right" way to "heal" years ago.
No one defines your or any of our realities. And that includes the purveyors of Urban Myths and other such "HAVE TO'S." I don't "Have to" do a damn thing but live in my reality and my truth and if that makes me "NOT PC" too fuckin' bad.
Hit the delete key. Rest assured I'm doin' the same re: you IRL and in cyberspace.
TW
Hey TW!
DeleteYou're such a bad ass. Even though I've never heard your voice, I can just hear the sass as you say, "I don't HAVE TO do a damn thing..."
Love,
Vanci
Lovely lovely post, Vanci. As I was reading the story of the car and how everybody said "oh my god are you okay?" I was expecting you to get to the part where you come home and your parents are fucking mad at you. How the first thing they said was something far less humane.
ReplyDeleteyeah I'm with you, fuck forgiveness. Alice Miller has our back.
upsi,
DeleteI had to revisit and try to remember what their reaction was as I was writing that story. Unfortunately, it's a blank spot... which tells me something about their reaction as I hardly ever had to black out the kindnesses!
Love,
Vanci
I expected that development too! I'm conditioned to.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure their reaction wasn't "Oh my God, are you OK?"
I have a different definition of forgiveness, which doesn't include reconciliation or any relationship at all, but I'm not even there yet. My definition is somewhere along the lines of "if you don't want the other party to burn in Hell/be forever an evil narcissist, but instead wouldn't mind seeing them repent/go through profound changes/do the painful, hard work that would help them see the light, then you have forgiven." And, as I said, I'm not even there yet, and don't intend to force myself there yet.
PA,
DeleteYour comment made me laugh out loud. Yeah... I'm pretty sure that their reaction wasn't one of strict concern for my well being.
I'm glad to hear you say that you're working through your process at your own pace; that's, in my experience, the key to healing - to just do it one step at a time at the pace that works for you.
Love,
Vanci
PA, I love your wise definition of forgiveness. --quartz
DeleteVanci, this is one of the best posts on forgiveness I have come across, yay! --quartz
ReplyDeleteFrom Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
ReplyDelete"One of the things Ford Prefect had always found hardest to understand about humans was their habit of continually stating and repeating the very very obvious, as in It's a nice day, or You're very tall, or Oh dear you seem to have fallen down a thirty-foot well, are you alright?"
It's so comforting to find so many blogs on this subject--and how forgiveness without repentance, just does not work. I've been subjected to my share of platitudes while trying to deal with what my narc ex-friends did. I'd start sharing with a friend things that happened, and get some platitude like this, or "let it go," or whatever. And I'd think, "Oh, so this person doesn't really care about all the details of what happened to me. So I just have to stuff it all down because nobody seems to want to hear much about what happened. But there's a whole buttload of stuff I have to talk about and get off my chest!" But no, I'm supposed to just "let it go" before I've even talked about it or processed it.....
ReplyDeleteHence, my blog posts on the subject. :P Since my comments are turned off, nobody can tell me to shut up!
Well, the narcs did. But I ignored them and kept talking.